rsoi_mod: phichit and guang hong blushing (phichit guanghong)
First - I'm waiting on an invite before I can create the AO3 collection. I'll probably go ahead and open nominations as soon as I'm able to do that, which should be earlier than the date listed above.

Second - before I finalize the rest of the information in the welcome post above, I wanted some feedback on a few things. Please feel free to discuss on this post - anon commenting is on! - or shoot me an email at rareshipsonice@gmail.com if you'd prefer that.

Update, April 16: warning matching is off the table! Thanks for chiming in, everyone :)

Update, April 17: commenting will be required, with a three-week deadline after works are revealed. I've also settled on 3 to 20 requests and offers. Still open to input on additional mediums, as well as anything else you'd like to ask or suggest :)

Update, April 24: I'm adding podfic! The rule updates may take a day or two. I'm still thinking about graphics. There wasn't enough interest in a separate graphics category, so I'm not adding one. I'm open to reconsidering for next year.

Mediums
I'm currently planning to allow matching on fanfiction and fanart. Do you want any other mediums available? If so, what would be a good minimum equivalent to 500 words of fanfiction?

Match on archive warnings?
Would being able to match on archive warnings be helpful for you, or just confusing? I personally liked it a lot for Smut Swap, since there are some pairings I don't want aged up or aged down.

I'd allow everyone to make multiple requests, so you could group your Noncon pairings in one request and your No Warnings ships in another request, for example.

The main confusing element here is the existence of "Chose Not to Warn," which is useless for matching. I'm toying with the idea of explicitly stating: "Do not request or offer CNTW" and asking anyone who did so anyway to change their sign-up, or I'd change it for them. A bit more work on my end, but I think worth it to eliminate weird matching confusion.


Commenting
Should non-commenters be banned from future RSOI exchanges? If so, what do you think is a reasonable timeframe to expect comments within?


# of requests and offers
What do you think is a reasonable minimum number of relationships to request and offer? I'm leaning towards minimum 3 for each.

Maximum would be 20 or something at least. Exact # would depend on whether I end up allowing multiple sets of requests and offers to facilitate archive warning divisions.


Anything else?
I'm all ears :)

Date: 2017-04-16 08:32 am (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
I think matching on archive warnings is very confusing, and it'd discourage me at least from participating. If you make a rule that requesters' DNWs have to be respected whether they apply to all requests or are pairing specific, it's easy to add things like "DNW characters under the age of 18 having sex in the fic so please age them up" there.

Minimum of three relationships sounds fine!

Date: 2017-04-16 01:08 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
+1! I really like having CNTW available as an option. I understand that it doesn't work with matching on warnings for pure unavoidable technical reasons, but still, having no one able to use it is a deterrent.

Date: 2017-04-16 08:14 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
I also meant it for signups :P sorry for not making that clear!

Date: 2017-04-16 03:13 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
If you do add the rule that respecting DNWs is mandatory (which would be excellent), could you also specify that the DNWs must be on the AO3 sign-up form and not just on the possible Dear Author letter? That way the participants can't edit them later.

Date: 2017-04-20 02:29 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] yue_ix
yue_ix: Chibified dragon doodling on Excalibur's blade, with a tiny crown and magical hat floating around (Artistic dragon)
Can we still comment here? I have reservations about the Mediums allowed.

For one, I do not understand why graphics and manips would not be considered fanart. That narrows the field quite a lot as well as be a bit ellitist about what is considered "good enough art", and I for one would absolutely love to see fanvids/AMVs, wallpapers, themed animated series, fake Instagram/Twitter posts, icons or any other sub-types of graphics and manips of my rareships.

Secondly, what about podfic, crafts, baked goods, or other types of medium? I don't expect to be able to choose between all of that, but might we offer and request them nonetheless? Rules for most media can be similarly simple for all of the above: > 5 min of recording, clean seams, finished look, contain more than 5 images used, ect.

Date: 2017-04-20 03:25 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] darkages
darkages: (Default)
i do not want to refute the validity of all the points you've made, so please don't take it that way, but i want to provide a counterpoint to some of these.

i know from experience that a lot of people like to receive "like-for-like" in an exchange, and i'm also like that; i'll be offering fic, and i'd like to receive fic in return. the more unusual the medium, the less likely it is there'll be other people offering/requesting it. i'm certainly not saying this is the case for everyone, but it's definitely something to take into account.

re: elitism and whether graphics/manips count as fanart, i can't speak for the mod but if they were to be included, i'd make them a category in their own right, primarily to avoid confusion. whether or not the mod wants to allow that is their prerogative. even things like fanvids would need their own category. all of this is fundamentally to account for the fact that people have very particular tastes and you want to be as specific as possible to avoid disappointment (as with this exchange's excellent DNW policy.)

onto your final point: personally i would never allow crafts or baked goods in an exchange, or indeed anything handmade & tangible, because the very nature of those media is that although they can be gifted to someone in spirit, except in rare cases they will remain the physical property of the person who created them. you can't exactly "post" them to ao3, except in the form of photos, and at a certain point if you want to create something like that then an ao3-based gift exchange is not the place for it.

podfic is a separate point, because as is stated in the exchange's rules, this is for new works, not sequels to your previous works, etc. podfic by nature requires a fic to already exist, so you would need to either write a fic from scratch and pod it, or allow a special exemption for requests like "make a podfic of this fic" but... you can see how that'd get messy easily, right? especially because the ships here are so rare, there's not exactly much to choose from to pod. it's easier just to exclude it from this exchange.

one more note, about making new rules for new categories of media: i think this is a very sensible idea, but it's also worth noting that the more categories you create, the more rules you're going to have to create, and that adds more potential for confusion. and for some things, it's hard to judge how much effort went into them. for fic you can make a simple statement like "word count greater than" and for art you can say "no lined paper" etc, but how do you quantify effort for graphics? for fanvids? idk. i don't really have a conclusive statement for this point but i'm leaving it here as food for thought.

Date: 2017-04-21 08:45 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] yue_ix
yue_ix: Chibi of Merlin with tentacle arms (Tentacles chibi)
I'd first like to clear one big confusion: when I said "I don't expect to be able to choose between all of that, but might we offer and request them nonetheless?" I meant that I wanted to be able to specify these in my "additional details" section. NOT have every medium type as a separate category. That would, indeed, be impractical in this fest's scale, as you've described.

I agree with the "like calls to like", but my experience of this is that, as a (drawing type) fanartist myself, I've always wanted and expected to be able to receive graphics and manips as fanart if that is the only visual art category. This is why this exchange's rules were so surprising to me. As I answered the mod bellow, fics have not had this specificity imposed on them; one could offer roleplaying, poetry or meta, and any of these could equally disappoint or overjoy the receiver.

If the goal is to make sure people are offering or requesting exactly what they want, this can be done by a small line saying: "If requesting/offering fanart, please specify whether you prefer hand-drawn, graphics, manips, or all". This clears up any possible confusion while affording wide liberty for a variety of artists, which leads to more fanworks for these deprived rare ships. \o/

Baked good and crafts: sorry, I have trouble understand this point. As a traditional artist, when I draw fanart, the physical painting remains my property and I submit, on tumblr and AO3, a photograph or scan of it. Fics may also be written down by hand in a notebook and transcribed on AO3. I cannot conceive how that would make them unsuitable gifts?

Podfic by nature doesn't require text. My friend Opalsong and I made a YoI Mafia!AU podfic that doesn't have any source text - we chatted plots, she recorded a not!fic, I recorded a reply to her that furthered the story, and there is large chunks of this work that is un-transcripted. Furthermore, there are no rules in this fest about creating a fanwork part of a pre-existing universe (ie: using Kurage's Older!Yurio/Otabek art as ref for many, many fics), only that each piece cannot be part of a series. As the podfic community considers each work to be a stand-alone and not a sequel to any source text - which has been the source of many, many [community profile] podficmeta - anyone requesting such would know what they are getting.

In my opinion, exchanges with low threshold such as this one are the most perfect place for varied fanworks *because* of the very limited quality control effort required of the mods. I've offered "5+ minutes length, clean seams, finished look, contain more than 5 images used, ect." in my initial comment, but in past fandoms I've seen several challenges say "completed 500 words or clean sketch not on lined paper. Other medium are expected to have equivalent effort put into them." In case of doubt, letting the other media regulate themselves will work, because no one can quantify efforts better than people making those fanworks. This isn't a Big Bang, where it is very important to set clear minimum so that everyone gives an equally big performance.

Example of a very inclusive yet specific rules: "All fics must be at least 1,000 words. Fanvids must be at least 45 seconds long. Fanarts must be a complete piece and more than a sketch or preview (lines inked or seams blended). For icons, it must be a batch of at least 10 icons with a tying theme. There is no upper limit as to length or quality. If you are unsure about the “value” of your fanwork, please feel free to ask the mods." - Merlin Holidays

As I see it - what is the harm in allowing people to offer or request these as a bonus while knowing that if no one takes them up on it they'll receive or do written fic/drawn art instead? People who don't want these medium won't ever receive them, but people who do might have an added possibility. Exactly like the rule's excellent DNW policy, which I also love. :)

Date: 2017-04-25 05:06 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] darkages
darkages: (Default)
thank you for your reply! there's definitely some stuff here i haven't considered. i don't have the spoons to leave a long reply right now but i might get back to you later :)

Date: 2017-04-20 03:14 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] cantarina
cantarina: donna noble in a paper crown, looking thoughtful (Default)
Hi! Jumping in here to weigh on on the podfic question, as both a long-time podfic exchange and fest mod and as someone who's run into problems as a podficcer participant in multimedia exchanges.

So, I don't know if you're in podfic metafandom because the thing has gotten huge and sprawling, but my experience with it is that in our fannish subculture, a new podfic, whether it comes from a new or an existing story IS considered the new work. Podfic-centered challenges never require new text unless it's something like [community profile] pod_together, where an author and a podficcer are matched up and something is purpose-written and that collaboration is the point. For us, podfic is a complete, independent fanwork all on its own, not as an addition or reformatting, and in podfic exchanges it's pretty rare to see newly-written works.

I know that this is a weird cultural gap to navigate for fic and art-based exchanges considering including podfic, because we're literally working from different baseline assumptions. I know it's common practice in multi-media exchanges to include a new-writing-only rule for podfic, but a lot of podficcers don't write, or only write intermittently, and that turns into an enormous barrier to our participation that doesn't need to be there.

If you lift the new-writing clause but are worried about there being not enough fic to choose/get author blessing from, a rule to include at least one moderately-well written ship (500 fics is the cap right? Just require that podfic people include at least one 100+ fics ship). That should solve the "will enough fic exist" problem.

(If you're also low-key worried about people recording against an author's wishes, please know that that's incredibly rare. Podficcers are very, very conscious of the fact that we depend on writers to do this thing that we love passionately, and that authors are real people with real feelings.)

I'm happy to chat more if you like! Like I said, I do a lot of for-podfic modding and have wandered into enough exchanges like this one to have failed out because of miscommunications and pitfalls. Your best bet if you say yes is to either bring on a podfic mod, or to work closely with someone who has the experience to help walk you through the integration. It's going to be extra work to do it right, but I imagine the first fic-art integrated exchanges had a lot of legwork to do too.

Date: 2017-04-21 07:24 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] yue_ix
yue_ix: Steampunk drawing of Guinevere with her name (Guinevere steam)
Thank you for answering and considering my points! I can see where you come from, but there was some confusion about my initial comment.

I do not want there to be separate categories for all of the above; I want to be able to request or offer any of those within the already-existing two categories: visual-based into fanart, words-based into fic.

It would indeed be rather impractical to have a specific category for baked goods or crafts, but I'd love to be able to say I'm open to it, whilst fully aware I'm most likely to get another type of art. This is already true of fic: while the rules specify that "fanart" is drawn art, nothing is said of what you consider to be "fic". Thus, while it is unlikely, it could be possible for people to offer or request poetry, RP logs, podfic, meta or others forms of words. As an artist, I'd love us to have a similar range of possibilities.

On the point of participant expectation, my experience has been very different as a mod and a participant. While I know of several fic-writer who were very specific about what type of art they wanted, I've seldom met any type of artists not happy to receive another type. I've myself want and expect to be able to receive graphics and manips as fanart if that is the only visual art category. Furthermore, having so many visual fanworks *explicitly not allowed* or needing separate categories adds confusion: manipulated screenshots of social media is very popular in YoI, especially for Phichit ship, because it is so prevalent in canon, and often include both graphics and drawn art into a single image.

For reference, the < href="https://yuri-on-ice-valentine-exchange.tumblr.com/guidelines">Yuri on ice Valentine challenge didn't set a distinction and received many graphics submission, while the YoI Holiday exchange started off with four categories. Phichit and Otayuri weeks allowed everything under the sun. This maximizes the amount of fanworks that *can* be created, which is very important for smaller ships where every single one counts.

To keep things very clear and yet simple, in my experience in the sign-up there sometimes be a small line saying: "If requesting/offering fanart, please specify whether you prefer hand-drawn, graphics, manips, or all". This cleared up any possible confusion while affording wide liberty for a variety of artists, and less chances to feel excluded.

TL:DR: All I ever wanted was to be allowed to specify as many things in my additional details as possible. No need to do anything complex: the more things one can offer, the more fanworks can be created for rare ships in need.

Date: 2017-04-22 07:24 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] yue_ix
yue_ix: Girl standing in front of text: "Replace fear of the unknown by curiosity" (Curiosity)
I love the look of that sign-up! In this case, "additional details" would be either in the Letter or in the Description sections.

If graphics end up not being added as a whole category, I'd love to be able to mention them in my Letter. Since the rules currently explicitly state "Graphics and manipulations cannot fulfil an art request.", I wanted to discuss if and how I could go about this.

Your point is sound! AO3's matching doesn't offer the leeway I was thinking about in my suggestions. If graphics end up as a new category, would you consider naming the "fanart" category "hand drawn", "traditional art" or similarly specific? It would have put my initial confusion to rest (re: graphics being art).

Thank you!

Date: 2017-04-20 01:47 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] analise010
analise010: (Podfic)
Hello! Is there any way that we could include podfic in this exchange? I know a TON of podficcers who absolutely love Yuri!!! On Ice and would pimento be involved in this exchange.

Date: 2017-04-21 08:58 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
If you allow podfic, does the recipient get to decide which fics they get as a gift? Which would be pretty impractical as not everyone wants their fics to get podficced.

Or is the let's say author going to decide which fic they read? Which would mean that the recipient might get a podfic of a fic they dislike, and there's still the fact that not everyone will want their fics redone as podfics.

Date: 2017-04-22 03:05 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] cantarina
cantarina: donna noble in a paper crown, looking thoughtful (Default)
Gonna jump in again! With the disclaimer that I'm not the Podfic Mod to End All Podfic Mods, etc, etc.

The #InformalTwitterPodficExchange (or #ITPE) has run annually since 2011 and produced over a 1000 podfics. We've never had an incident of an author coming back to us to say their fic was recorded against a blanket statement or without getting permission in the absence of one. Although I know that that doesn't mean it's never ever happened, I do take that as an encouraging sign that our participants are respecting fandom's boundaries. If it ever did happen, co-mod and I would probably consider banning as a punishment, depending on the circumstances. (I've seen one or two miscommunications between author and podficcer over the years, which we'd obviously approach differently than a podficcer ignoring a really clear no.)

re: prompting, this is what a typical #ITPE sign up looks. We match by hand and lean on these letters extensively to make sure we're matching people who have more or less compatible tastes. It's less about prompts and more about finding fic you'll enjoy reading and that you honestly think your recipient will enjoy listening to. Gifters have a lot of leeway about how closely they follow those letters, but we require full-stop that they respect squicks and triggers and expect them to at least follow the spirit of the rest of it.
Edited (Fixed html) Date: 2017-04-22 03:05 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-04-22 09:47 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] cantarina
cantarina: donna noble in a paper crown, looking thoughtful (Default)
I've already touched on the only other thing that's been a major obstacle, where I signed up for podfic-only but was matched only on character so rare that for most of them, there wasn't any fic at all, or what there was fell well-below the minimum. One of the things I've seen women-centric fests and exchanges do is allow podficcers to add up a group of related or unrelated stories to hit the minimum wordcount. (Although 500 words is already a really decently low bar!) You've already covered everything else by being so open to conversation and adjustment :)

Date: 2017-04-22 03:49 am (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
Regardless of what mediums would be allowed, what would be the rules on DNW-ing mediums? e.g. if someone doesn't want to receive fanart, do they need to explicitly DNW fanart in their sign-up or is not requesting fanart enough? Asking mostly with treats in mind - since treats aren't subject to the minimums of main assignments I wonder if they'd be subject to the same medium restrictions as well.

Date: 2017-04-22 06:59 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] idleleaves
idleleaves: (Default)
Would podfic be a separate category or would it fall under the 'fic' umbrella? I ask because podfic (for some reason I cannot figure out) hits my embarrassment squick so hard I can't listen to it, so matching with someone who only wants to do podfic and not written fic would be... less than ideal, tbh.

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